Evil? Where Does Such a Thing Come From?
Evil? Where Does Such a Thing Come From?
by Greenworld
This is what Christians are afraid of spending the rest of eternity with.
It never ceases to amuse me just how apologists like to use the “vacuum analogy” when responding to the statement that if evil is caused by “The Devil,” and “The Devil” came from Yahweh, then Yahweh certainly allowed “evil” to exist. (Oh, but wait: if there was no “evil” then we’d all be ROBOTS!!!) Do you really think that belief in “some red guy with an arrow-pointed tail carrying a silly little trident” would prevent us from being “robots”…?
No. Incorrect. “Evil” comes from nature; animals always display this “evil” that religious fanatics spew about because in nature it is all a matter of life and death through survival: the strong shall prevail and reproduce as the weak perish like mosquitoes. For other animals to cause “evil” they would need a “Devil” to represent their enemy, which Christianity has failed to provide. Therefore, these animals are “robots,” even though they share emotions alike ourselves. What’s the difference, other than threats of “burning in Hell” with “some red guy with an arrow-pointed tail carrying a silly little trident”?
As humans, we have been “evil” long before religions came around because we desired (and still do) the power of superiority; this has nothing to do with “some red guy with an arrow-pointed tail carrying a silly little trident” because humans are capable of showing different emotions and personalities.We are “evil” because we want to win the fight and not lose — and what could be wrong with that? It just shows that the desire for power and recognition is a GOAL in life; we want to apply a meaning to each and everyone of us because life is what we make it out to be.
Now, tell me how “some red guy with an arrow-pointed tail carrying a silly little trident” has ANYTHING to do with why we experience these emotions? Honestly, I’m very fucking glad we do; we feel better about ourselves by putting down those who also put us down. What’s wrong with that? Why can’t we experience these natural emotions? If Yahweh wants us to adore him, then why the need for “some red guy with an arrow-pointed tail carrying a silly little trident” in the first place?
The “but otherwise we’d be robots!” argument is a silly one because nature has shown us that non-human animal lifeforms TOO display these emotions. Try cuddling a pet dog and watch the other one whimper or rage in jealousy over the other — this is also possible with humans. So, why must these animals be fortunate enough to share emotions that us humans would be prosecuted for? I find religion to be quite an ironic world. And no, Christianity is no more a thing of “non-religious faith” than Islam is “just some religion” (in the eyes of Christian fundamentalists). In fact, both religious share similar traits of violence, pedophilia, incest, misogyny, hatred of homosexuals (the people who “chose” to be attracted to the same sex one day while waking up), and many more. How can religion look so “good” when all these flaws are present?
To conclude, again I shall say that “evil” being caused by “some red guy with an arrow-pointed tail carrying a silly little trident” is nothing more than a figment of your imagination caused by fear (much like the phobia of sleeping in the dark without a nightlight). And it is this “fear” that continues to grow and expand by word of mouth. Savages harvest on this “fear” by telling their children that if they do not believe in Yahweh (or some other sky fairy) then they will be spending the rest of their lives with “some red guy with an arrow-pointed tail carrying a silly little trident.”
Christianity is purely pathetic. Maybe it’s time more people open their eyes and look around them; this world is not perfect and life is what each and everyone of us makes it out to be, whether we want to live a life of “evil” (such as participating in the Gay Pride Parades or a therapist convincing a troubled believer that fearing a “loving” deity like Yahweh is completely irrational) or believe in this heap of garbage. You choose how you want to live. Not me. And you can’t tell me what I should do with my life, so fuck off.
When God made Earth, He put Man and Woman to reproduce and live life in peace and harmony with the Lord. The reason why evil exists is that Eve chose to disobey God, and ate from the Tree of Life in The Garden of Eden (which He told her not to). This is why evil exists: because Man has chosen to rebel against God, and this is the same rebellion that Lucifer acted out. Point is, if you rebel against God, you are going to kill other people, steal, rape, have sex with anyone at parties, do drugs, etc. etc.
Think. For yourself.
C’est quoi ca?
Do you really believe that without your god you would commit such atrocious crimes as murder and rape. Added to this you would become relentlessly promiscuous and a drug addicted thief. The mind boggles at what the ect, etc’s are? I base this on your comment “Point is, if you rebel against God, you are going to kill other people, steal, rape, have sex with anyone at parties, do drugs, etc. etc.”
No Gregaroo. You don’t get to tell us to think for ourselves after relaying your mass produced answer for the origin of evil (original sin).
I am an atheist and an apostate. Does that mean I “rebelled” against god?
Will I now descend down a path of sin, debauchery, habitual drug use, murder and rape?
I would argue that I am LESS likely to degenerate into a “fucking degenerate” (to quote Joe Pesci) because I, along with most atheists, have a better understanding of true morality than the religious.
The religious (sorry to generalise) use the ten commandments or scripture to learn the “standards” of morality. They enforce these (sub)standards with threats of eternal punishment or an incentive in the form of eternal reward.
The problem is that these doctrines are irrelevant, outdated, unnecessarily specific on some topics (eg don’t covet your neighbour’s livestock) and dangerously vague on other topics (eg child molestation).
Oh, definitely… I enjoy fucking every hooker I see on the street and I rob banks just because I don’t believe in your piece of shit god. Makes perfect sense you have an incentive to be kind to others and stay away from committing crimes — and its name is “heaven.”
I think my only criticism is a bit of a nitpick at the reference to mosquitoes. Those motherfuckers flourish, there are too damn many of them.
Though I’m sure you were thinking more along the lines of them being easy to kill regardless of their numbers. ;)
When criticizing others for being ignorant twats it helps when you are not ignorant twat yourself.
1. Evil in christianity is not caused by the Devil but by the fact that man has a free will to choose whether he want to be with God and obey him or not.
If he chooses to disobey God and separate himself from God then evil is “created”.
Devil may play a part in that but it is the man with his free will that has to choose to disobey God and that is why man is responsible for his action.
2. The “animals are robots” part of christianity doesn’t have anything to do with emotions, but with free will.
Animal are considered to be some kind of “robot” because they do not possess free will, emotions do not play a part in that.
3. In christianity type of evil that animals display is not the same type of evil that humans display.
Humans display type of evil that is commonly referred to as “moral evil” which is evil that only agents with free will can commit.
Animals on the other hand display type of evil know as “natural evil” which is basically any evil that happens without the true influence of agents with free will.
“Natural evil” evil is considered to not have purpotrators only victims.
4. They can tell you what to do with your life (and probably will start doing so during my lifetime) all they need is a sufficient number of people.
Once they have that your kind can either kiss their atheism or their life goodbye, I’m hoping your kind will choose to forfeit your life simply because it will be more amusing for me but seeing as history books aren’t exacty full of atheist martyrs they will most likey choose to forfeit their atheism.
So “thank” you all in advance for ruining my fun.
I smell an idiot.
And I smell a retard.
But neither my smell nor yours will change the fact that the autor of the article has displayed rather poor knowledge of the topics he/she writes about.
1. That “free will” argument is so tired. If Yahweh wanted us to worship him, then don’t you think he could have done a bit better than that? I mean, why not step in and protect Adam and Eve from being in contact with the talking snake? Also, it’s not so much “free will” when a “loving” god threatens you with eternal damnation. What kind of “free will” is this, when you are bribed into believing in him so you don’t suffer in hell? Calvinism at least got the “predestination” thing right; that Yahweh only chooses *certain* people to go to heaven once they’re dead. Therefore, a god offering us “free will” while at the same time threatening to cast us in hell if we don’t believe in him is a total oxymoron. You fail.
2. Nonsense. Animals and humans are much alike. Just because they do not possess the ability to talk does not mean they cannot feel or show emotions. Animals have just as much “free will” to choose as humans do. The only difference is they don’t go to any afterlife and we are Yahweh’s bait over whether or not we worship him. This makes your god only more detestable. The End Times of Christianity… is near.
3. Not the same type of evil? Again, where do you get this? “Evil” depends on how you look at it; America considers al-Qaeda to be evil and al-Qaeda considers America to be evil. It varies because whatever you consider to be “evil” is what you stand against. Animals kill other animals, and their families view other families as enemies often. This is not far removed from how one human looks at another. It is natural for any human OR animal to have “evil” thoughts and feelings; all it is is how you see the people who are not on your side.
4. Good for them if they feel that way. I don’t need Christianity, and I feel so much happier and less afraid of life now that I no longer believe. Religion (including Christianity) is a method of telling people that they are worthless because they need Yahweh or Allah… because we’re all “hell deserving sinners” and therefore we must repent. People are not allowed to express their beauty through Art (not just painting and drawing, but also music, writing, just about anything that is a reflection of mankind’s emotions) if certain contents are seen as “offensive” or “contradicting” to their beliefs. Fuck that. People should feel happy about who they are, that it’s OK to have these thoughts and feelings. Your religion tries to entrap our true emotions by telling us that we “need” to believe in your god or else we will “burn in hell” for what a rib-woman did. Speaking of women, what does Yahweh have against females for? Eve was cursed with pregnancy (how come other female mammals can get pregnant — even though they didn’t “sin”?) and throughout the Old and New Testaments women were hardly ever commended unless they were to serve as a “purpose” for their husbands. There are more male characters in the Bible and the women are told that they mustn’t have a say in anything, that only the “man” is allowed to have a say. Why? What does Yahweh have against females so much? Is it too much to ask to have prevented a total crisis from the get-go? Again, you’re going to reuse that same tired “but then we’d be robots so thank God we have free will” bull. If that’s all you got, then your god is imperfect; if such a thing KNOWS what’s going to happen in the future, why not prevent “sin” from happening? Certainly as a deity who can do absolutely *anything* can make it possible for humans to live their lives without “being robots.” And as for the “you can kiss your atheism or your life goodbye” argument, that only makes Christianity a more detestable religion. It’s THAT sort of mentality that gets people going nuts over whether or not they’re going to “burn in hell.” So, they’re not allowed to express themselves through Art if their talents are seen as “worldly” or “offensive” to their religious beliefs. Religion holds back society and prevents us from making the most out of our lives. Yahweh seems to only have made us because he wants to “test” us, and so he puts us here on Earth and we are taught to hate the “sinful” things that are actually quite natural and don’t really hurt others. Homosexuality doesn’t kill anyone, so why is it a “sin”? Women protesting against society only viewing them as “helpers” aren’t sinning but simply demanding equal rights. Yet a pastor that kills his children because “The Devil is in them” is in no fear of “burning in hell” because he believes in Jesus. If Yahweh forgives people regardless of what they’ve done in the past, then wouldn’t you think it’s unjust and fucked up that a murderer who confesses and repents RIGHT after murdering a secular humanitarian worker in third world countries gets to go to heaven, while the humanitarian is rotting in hell? What kind of “loving” father is this? You are such a fucking idiot. Don’t reproduce.
Well that was stupid. You’re a member of a so-called “extraordinary love” religion yet you go hide behind the computer screen visiting outsider website insulting them with names.
This is not love, it’s hypocrisy at it’s finest. But anyway…
Chernobog says: “I’m hoping your kind will choose to forfeit your life”
Jesus says: “Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you…” (Matt. 5:44)
When’s a Christian no longer a Christian? When he no longer believes in his own (ironically subjective) fantastical interpretations of myths, or when he no longer practises what his ‘God’ preached? Regardless, you’re a twat.
1. Free will – sure, Greenworld didn’t write about the most common myth of the origin of evil, but one of the popularly conceived ones – the relationship between God, the Devil and Man. Your retort doesn’t demonstrate any other fact beyond that though. You are still left with the conundrum of: God created all, therefore free will and evil too; why? Presumably you’ll say either “To prove we love him” (whilst he simultaneously provides absolutely no evidence ‘he’ even exists), or with one side of your fickle tongue say “God’s ways are higher than ours”, then proceed with the other side to tell us exactly what God’s ways are. Despite the endless obvious problems with that.
You haven’t taken us any closer to actual truth, but just back round to the same standard problems in Christian doctrine. Greenworld brings up a great point – what freedom is their in a ‘free will’ that only has ABSOLUTE damnation on failure to comply to – unsubstantiated – rules? It isn’t freedom at all.
2. “Animals don’t possess free will” – right; get this in your head: you’re an animal. There is no evidence to the contrary.
‘Free will’ is an extremely dubious concept that little of modern cognitive science can be really said to back up. You may feel that you have free will, but that doesn’t mean you do. Just the TINIEST bit of reading on the subject before posting wouldn’t go amiss, kindly. Your distinction between other animals and man being based on ‘free will’ is just an archaic myth. We are separated by a lot other means, but the ‘free will’ aspect derives from a simple, primitive taxonomical error – like the daft dietary advice in the OT, and Jesus’s stupid claim that “whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery”. You are confused by inaccurate category errors.
3. Classic example of apparently logical deductions derived from a false axiom.
4. True – X can, literally speaking, tell Y what to do. That doesn’t make it moral. In your case, you espouse a theocratic dictatorship where all kowtow to the same – and I can’t repeat this enough – UNSUBSTANTIATED, ill-considered, inaccurate, contradictory myths derived from a tiny arbitrary set of largely illiterate, sheep-herding, hopelessly ignorant, deluded primitive desert-culture peasants. Your wish for this is to enforce the closing off of the mind to intellectual honesty and all naturalistic evidence, and to have called this a moral grounds for establishing dictatorship is shameful – still, it’s not as if it were unexpected. Religion fostering group-enmity, and all that – you know – substantiated history.
Kindly take some time out to read Karl Popper’s “Open Society and it’s Enemies”. I don’t need your religious reading list – I’ve read all the major works, including the anthropological studies of the diversity of religious beliefs that make such a mockery of your narcissistic faithfulness.
Oh, and if ‘Gregory’ is reading this – you are almost brain-dead. Evil was ‘created’ by A&E? God created A&E, God’s omniscient and omnipotent, therefore God created Evil; why?
Now: demonstrate God’s existence, and then explain precisely why he’d do such a thing without – and I know in advance that you can’t – repeating the same tired, heavily and fundamentally refuted myths.
Or: Grow up and return to depending on naturalistic causes for explanations of events, rather than jumping to the unsubstantiated supernatural and it’s following arbitrary, ill-considered myths.
This line alone makes you a cunt, although the rest of your diatribe is the text equivalent of a fresh, steaming turd.
@ Greenworld and Ben on points 1-3:
The first 3 points where not arguments for Christianity (or any of the concepts related to it) they where ment to show that Greenworld’s article is just one big “straw man” created do to his/hers lack of knowledge regarding certain concepts in Christianity.
@ Greenworld:
1. Once again you show a lack of knowledge regarding concepts you wish to criticize.
Learn what God actually represents in Christianity and why a person disobeying and separating himself from God ends up in hell (you will also learn what hell actually is) and might understand the nature of so called “threat”.
2. Again emotions do not have anything to do with animals being “robots” in Christianity.
Words very similar to yours “The End Times of Christianity… is near.” have been spoken many times throughout the history by many people and unlike the people how said them Christianity is alive and well.
3. I’m not sure who first came up the idea but I’ve often seen in mentioned in relation with Thomas Aquinas.
4. Now you show lack of knowledge regarding homosexuality.
It does kill people, not directly but indirectly.
Acording to the CDC report published in 2010. MSM (Men who have sex with men) account for nearly half of the more than one million people living with HIV in the U.S.
They also find that the rate of new HIV diagnoses among MSM is more than 44 times that of other men and more than 40 times that of women.
And on top of that they find that the rate of primary and secondary syphilis among MSM is more than 46 times that of other men and more than 71 times that of women.
@ Satan
Your assumption that I’m a member of a so-called “extraordinary love” religion is wrong therefore there is nothing hypocritical about me hiding behind computer screen visiting outsider website and insulting people with names.
There is however much hypocrisy in the fact that people who pride themselves so much on their reason, logic, knowledge…etc. try to criticize something without understanding even the basics of that which they seek to criticize.
@ Ben
4. “Moral” is a flexible word.
@ Hal
I thank you for your constructive criticism of my text and for your keen essesment of my personality.
For my keen essesment of your personality just read the first line of my second comment.
assessment*
I’m sure there are plenty more, but this drivel isn’t even worth the time to read.
My dear sir, are you familiar with the term “Grammar Nazi”?
P.S. If it isn’t even worth the time to read why the hell are you taking the time to answer?
Chernobog – most curious. You point out other interpretations of Christianity and end on hoping all atheists will commit suicide, but aren’t a Christian? Well, if you’re not, you’re not, but you’ve got to admit that is a somewhat odd way to end if so!
It’s odd that you seem to think (from the post alone – maybe you don’t actually think it so) that the interpretation you’ve written of evil’s origin and of the relationship between free will, man and animals is somehow standard/orthodox – the plethora of ideas on these subjects within Christian churches over the millennia and continents is testament to that not being so. Calling Greenworld’s case a “strawman” isn’t fair, or accurate, as there are a thousand and one pinhead Christians who really think evil somehow originates with the ‘Devil”s rebellion against ‘God’. Some don’t, some do – some mish-mash A&E into it, some don’t, etc & blah.
In reality, all the religious claims made are strawmen unto themselves.
1. You’re telling me to learn what Yahweh represents in Christianity? Here’s what I learned: he’s a jealous god who wants people to worship him or suffer the consequences… but why? Why create humans if he *knew* there was going to be sin? Don’t you think this is quite the selfish, nasty, perverted, barbaric deity? If not, maybe it is YOU who needs to learn more about the true cold origins of this blood-drenched religion. Let’s look at a sample verse, shall we?
Did that bold piece of text get your attention? I hope it did. Is this what a “loving” god would command? Tell me how I am “not understanding” this right? How should I interpret this as a “good” thing? Did the people deserve to die? And why?
The concepts of Jesus (e.g. a man dying on the cross and being resurrected 3 days later, the son of a virgin woman, surrounded by 12 disciples, etc.) are all unoriginal ones as they have been previously applied to pagan gods being worshiped centuries before Christ even allegedly came around. http://fuzzyquark.comxa.com/original.html
2. No, I am just pointing out that animals are lucky enough to do with themselves whatever they want, while us humans have to feel responsible for our natural tendencies. As for that saying, more and more people in this day and age are seeing the logical fallacies which your religion has had them brainwashed in. As science and technology continues to progress, the Bible will become an even less important book. Thanks to promises of treasures and mansions in the hereafter, gullible people will still believe (Christians believe they are units, created *for* Yahweh’s own toy collection). If I told you that a “lucky horseshoe” would cure someone’s cancer, would you believe me? Of course not, because you would argue from a skeptical point of view, thus requiring that I provide valid proof for such a claim to be valid. Therefore, the same could be said about Christianity: “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” Since you are making all these claims straight from the book, it is YOUR job to prove me that I am wrong. So far, you have failed to do so. Perhaps you would have convinced me some 200-300 years ago (when our minds were not able to really think outside of the “god” complex), but in this day and age it is crystal clear that there is so much more to our universe than that which your Bible has to say about it. It was clearly written by human beings, for other human beings. Back then, tribal men would look up to the sky and try to make a “meaning” out of it. That’s how they came up with “god.” And it is this “god” that they have vowed their own lives to protect, because “god” created them and the universe and all that has ever existed.
4. While I don’t disagree that there are more homosexual men in the United States who are diagnosed as HIV positive, it was really the frequent use of injection drugs since the “Free Love” era when people would swap sexual partners during war protests in the ’60s and onwards.
I didn’t criticise you for your ignorance, but for your cuntish outlook.
@Chernobog
Humans are no less animals than the rest of the animal species. Their evil isn’t any more natural than ours. Animals are no robots and do whatever they want, this is called free will. So I am afraid animals do, indeed, have free will and you’re the one mistaken on the basics.
Morality is a product of social norms that evolve over the ages. What was moral 2,000 years ago is different than what is moral today. Slavery was a norm 2,000 years ago (it even has Biblical support), and nowadays it’s banned in many societies.
@ Ben
I point out other interpretations of Christianity because I like Christianity and it annoys me when I see people criticizing it’s concepts without understanding them or even thinking about them.
Those thousand and one pinhead Christians are simply wrong because the Devil could have not rebelled against God unless he had a free will that he used to choose to rebel.
If he did not have free will then he could have not really rebelled against God because then it was God’s will that he “rebels”, so no matter how you put it in Christianity at the heart of evil is not the Devil but free will.
Thus criticizing the statement “that evil is caused by the Devil” on the grounds that Greenworld criticizes it is pointless and is not criticizing Christianity itself but straw man version of it.
@ Greenworld
1. I did not tell you to learn how God is represented in the Bible (more specificly in the OT) but to learn what God actually represents in Christianity.
God of today’s Christianity is not the same God we find in the OT, which is why so many Christians today think that the OT is somehow “flawed” or “corrupted”.
I’m not too familiar with all the myths mentioned in the link you gave but several things said about Mithras there are lies (shepherds at birth, twelve disciples, resurrection).
http://skepticwiki.org/index.php/Mithras
Take notice that that isn’t a site exactly friendly to religions, christian apologetics sites are much more skeptical of the claims regarding relation between Mithras and Jesus and more often then not they give good reasons for being so.
2. To say that 200-300 years ago our minds were not able to really think outside of the “god” complex is an insult to every great thinker that lived before 1800.
And of course there is much more to the universe then the Bible (or any “holy” book) says, no “holy” book was ever invisioned as a catalogue of the universe.
4. Then it would appear that the use of injection drugs and swapping sexual partners was more frequent among MSM then among others.
So no matter how you put it male homosexuality (not sure about female) in today’s world does indeed kill.
Also the “Free Love” era has been dead for quite some time so it does not seem very likely to me that the large number of MSM with HIV and syphilis (and the increased rate of newly infected) is just a relic from the “Free Love” era.
@ Satan
Why would doing whatever you want mean that you have free will?
It would in fact mean the opposite, it would mean that your will is completely subjected to your desires making you a slave of a sort.
That’s quite amusing to me, Chernobog – you’re annoyed that others, even those considering themselves Christian, are simply wrong… even though Christianity’s tenets are simply wrong, too :) This could then, ultimately, go on forever in an infinite dialectic – it’s foundations aren’t demonstrable, and many of it’s central claims are demonstrably false. The statements “the Devil has free will” and “the Devil doesn’t have free will” are both equally empty and false – to claim one is wrong is absurd; there’s no evidence of the Devil, or of a theist God, or of any the imaginative fantasies of the merry-go-round of theology’s fantasies.