Unfortunately, no matter what we say they will never be convinced; they have already made their minds up and they choose to live their lives pretending to be affected by fictional characters.
God DOES exist, but not outside the mind. I don’t know which god or gods exist, but I would rather have my doubts until there is scientific proof for any of them. This is where apologists come in… yet all they do is add more fuel to the fire. The argument over Yahweh’s undying love for humanity unfortunately backfires on them when you apply common sense.
For example, WHY would a loving god insist on subjecting the unbelievers to ETERNAL suffering, even though many of these unbelievers probably were more giving than most of this god’s loyal followers? Is it not unfair that the ones who lived their lives for helping others are sentenced to endless torture in contrast with those who lived their lives for their god? Why must secular humanitarians perish forever in the flames? Haven’t they done some good on this planet without the need for a deity? Unfortunately, apologists turn the table on us by saying, “You are saved by faith, not works.” If that is the case, then wouldn’t that (by logic) make Christianity actually LESS moral than secular humanitarianism? Actions matter more than words; why must one be allowed to enjoy paradise without lending a finger to help others, so long as they have a strong faith in Jesus?
I challenge all apologists to answer to this comment. Tell me how must it be “just” that naturally good people are the ones to suffer when the cowards lived their lives sucking up to their deities?
P.S. If “The Devil” just made me type this entire comment up, then wouldn’t that simply make such a creature more understanding and more loving than his creator deity?
I must say, I completely agree with your statement: “why must one be allowed to enjoy paradise without lending a finger to help others, so long as they have a strong faith in Jesus?” That being said, I would say that many who claim Christianity are not truly Christians. “Cowards who live their lives sucking up to their deities” are in no means justified in their actions or saved from eternal suffering. A true Christian, on the other hand, recognizes the need for faith-driven action. Today’s “Christian” is a poor representation of a true follower of Christ. For example, it disappoints me that the modern understanding of a Christian is someone who would try to talk their way out of an intelligent conversation by claiming that “The Devil” made you type these questions. I personally applaud you for posing these questions, as cliche as they may be.
I am no apologist, but unlike most “Christians”, I am more than willing to submit my intellectual opinion- although I can not promise to fully answer such questions (such questions are simply unanswerable, such as the beginnings of the universe, when a baby is considered alive, etc.) In my opinion, the issue is in the question itself. If anyone is to believe in any supernatural being, then they must adopt the fact that such a being is ultimately superior to themselves (keep in mind, this is a generality). Now assuming that this being is ultimately superior, we can agree that this includes intellect and/or judgement. So what you are asking is how can it be “just” for naturally good people to suffer… My answer is that it isn’t. God is not “just” in our understanding. We are in essence applying our personal opinion or view of justice to a transcending ideology. How do we know what justice is?
Well, if you are a Christian (a true Christian) this is where faith comes in. Our view of justice is this: God is inherently just. Whatever He does is “just” in accordance with His justice. That is a belief that can not be undermined in a philosophical or intellectual debate. It is like societal norms- they are determined by the society- this means that deviation is also determined by the society. One’s deviation from societal norms is not determined by their own opinion of norms- but the opinion of the society which determines the norms.
So the most basic form of this answer is this: God is just in His actions, because He is not bound by our own ideology of justice. This being said, it does not make it any easier for us to comprehend “why bad things happen to good people”, or why “naturally good people are made to suffer”. At some point, everyone realizes that they will never be able to understand life, death, or even spirituality (another reason I don’t claim to have a concrete answer to your question). So best of luck to you in your philosophical and spiritual questioning. Hope that I provided some food for thought.
I would also like to apologize for any offenses committed against you by someone from my own faith- seems that no matter where you go, there are always hypocrites. Its just a shame to be held responsible for the few who latch on to something simply for the sake of doing it.
The early Jewish religion was polytheistic, as it was derived from the Babylonian and Canaanite religions. While modern Jews and Christians try to downplay it, facts is facts. In fact, Yahweh used to be married to Asherah, before the early Jews decided it was inappropriate. :)
It’s interestingly ironic since modern Christianity is itself polytheistic…again, they downplay it suggesting that “saints”, although revered, having their own sphere of influence and prayed to as individuals, aren’t “deities”.
I guess they got a divorce. Does he pay child support?
Of the Christian flavours, it’s only Catholicism that says pray to the saints (as far as I know) – the rest say that you must not pray to anyone but God. But the rest have three gods in one to choose from, which is also pretty polytheistic.
It’s pretty polytheistic alright. The divine triangle doesn’t seem to be too uncommon in religion. A couple that I can think of immediately are:
in Hinduism, God manifests in three aspects: Brahman, Paramatma and Bhagavan.
The Egyptians had a three person divinity: Isis, Horus and Osiris
And of course, the Father, Son and the holy ghost.
Think of anymore ?
Logan Wednesday February 22nd, 2012 @ 3:38am
Im sorry, but how do the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost count as polytheistic deities? They are all one and the same. It is like water- the fact that it can be a solid (ice), liquid (water), or gas (steam/vapor) does not mean that the chemical properties are any different. In any three forms, it is dihydrogen monoxide.
This logic is laced with ignorance. Even if you do not believe in the Christian God, most people recognize that god(s) are not mortal or even physical. God did not make our physical bodies in His image because God is not a physical being and therefore has no physical image. This is talking about a spiritual being.
Sunday July 24th, 2011 @ 11:49pm
can u see air??? no but u no its there…
god exists but we cant see him. if we were to see him in our mortal form we would perish.
Sunday July 24th, 2011 @ 11:50pm
I’m not made of air. What’s god made of?
Monday July 25th, 2011 @ 4:54am
“If we see god in our mortal form we would perish.”
“We are made in god’s image and likeness”…
ergo if we see ourselves we should perish?
Monday July 25th, 2011 @ 12:29am
We can’t see air, but we can detect it in other ways. We can feel it, for one thing. Just inhale.
Whereas, you can’t detect any deity in any fashion at all.
Monday July 25th, 2011 @ 7:43am
I can see air when it’s very hot. It bends light.
Tuesday July 26th, 2011 @ 2:10am
Unfortunately, no matter what we say they will never be convinced; they have already made their minds up and they choose to live their lives pretending to be affected by fictional characters.
God DOES exist, but not outside the mind. I don’t know which god or gods exist, but I would rather have my doubts until there is scientific proof for any of them. This is where apologists come in… yet all they do is add more fuel to the fire. The argument over Yahweh’s undying love for humanity unfortunately backfires on them when you apply common sense.
For example, WHY would a loving god insist on subjecting the unbelievers to ETERNAL suffering, even though many of these unbelievers probably were more giving than most of this god’s loyal followers? Is it not unfair that the ones who lived their lives for helping others are sentenced to endless torture in contrast with those who lived their lives for their god? Why must secular humanitarians perish forever in the flames? Haven’t they done some good on this planet without the need for a deity? Unfortunately, apologists turn the table on us by saying, “You are saved by faith, not works.” If that is the case, then wouldn’t that (by logic) make Christianity actually LESS moral than secular humanitarianism? Actions matter more than words; why must one be allowed to enjoy paradise without lending a finger to help others, so long as they have a strong faith in Jesus?
I challenge all apologists to answer to this comment. Tell me how must it be “just” that naturally good people are the ones to suffer when the cowards lived their lives sucking up to their deities?
P.S. If “The Devil” just made me type this entire comment up, then wouldn’t that simply make such a creature more understanding and more loving than his creator deity?
Wednesday February 22nd, 2012 @ 3:33am
I must say, I completely agree with your statement: “why must one be allowed to enjoy paradise without lending a finger to help others, so long as they have a strong faith in Jesus?” That being said, I would say that many who claim Christianity are not truly Christians. “Cowards who live their lives sucking up to their deities” are in no means justified in their actions or saved from eternal suffering. A true Christian, on the other hand, recognizes the need for faith-driven action. Today’s “Christian” is a poor representation of a true follower of Christ. For example, it disappoints me that the modern understanding of a Christian is someone who would try to talk their way out of an intelligent conversation by claiming that “The Devil” made you type these questions. I personally applaud you for posing these questions, as cliche as they may be.
I am no apologist, but unlike most “Christians”, I am more than willing to submit my intellectual opinion- although I can not promise to fully answer such questions (such questions are simply unanswerable, such as the beginnings of the universe, when a baby is considered alive, etc.) In my opinion, the issue is in the question itself. If anyone is to believe in any supernatural being, then they must adopt the fact that such a being is ultimately superior to themselves (keep in mind, this is a generality). Now assuming that this being is ultimately superior, we can agree that this includes intellect and/or judgement. So what you are asking is how can it be “just” for naturally good people to suffer… My answer is that it isn’t. God is not “just” in our understanding. We are in essence applying our personal opinion or view of justice to a transcending ideology. How do we know what justice is?
Well, if you are a Christian (a true Christian) this is where faith comes in. Our view of justice is this: God is inherently just. Whatever He does is “just” in accordance with His justice. That is a belief that can not be undermined in a philosophical or intellectual debate. It is like societal norms- they are determined by the society- this means that deviation is also determined by the society. One’s deviation from societal norms is not determined by their own opinion of norms- but the opinion of the society which determines the norms.
So the most basic form of this answer is this: God is just in His actions, because He is not bound by our own ideology of justice. This being said, it does not make it any easier for us to comprehend “why bad things happen to good people”, or why “naturally good people are made to suffer”. At some point, everyone realizes that they will never be able to understand life, death, or even spirituality (another reason I don’t claim to have a concrete answer to your question). So best of luck to you in your philosophical and spiritual questioning. Hope that I provided some food for thought.
Wednesday February 22nd, 2012 @ 4:07am
I would also like to apologize for any offenses committed against you by someone from my own faith- seems that no matter where you go, there are always hypocrites. Its just a shame to be held responsible for the few who latch on to something simply for the sake of doing it.
Monday July 25th, 2011 @ 6:52am
“Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness…” Gen. 1:26
What I want to know is; What other gods was he including in the word “OUR” ?
Monday July 25th, 2011 @ 8:07am
Probably Buddha, based on the current condition of the average American.
Monday July 25th, 2011 @ 6:02pm
The early Jewish religion was polytheistic, as it was derived from the Babylonian and Canaanite religions. While modern Jews and Christians try to downplay it, facts is facts. In fact, Yahweh used to be married to Asherah, before the early Jews decided it was inappropriate. :)
It’s interestingly ironic since modern Christianity is itself polytheistic…again, they downplay it suggesting that “saints”, although revered, having their own sphere of influence and prayed to as individuals, aren’t “deities”.
Tuesday July 26th, 2011 @ 2:01am
I guess they got a divorce. Does he pay child support?
Of the Christian flavours, it’s only Catholicism that says pray to the saints (as far as I know) – the rest say that you must not pray to anyone but God. But the rest have three gods in one to choose from, which is also pretty polytheistic.
Tuesday July 26th, 2011 @ 8:15pm
It’s pretty polytheistic alright. The divine triangle doesn’t seem to be too uncommon in religion. A couple that I can think of immediately are:
in Hinduism, God manifests in three aspects: Brahman, Paramatma and Bhagavan.
The Egyptians had a three person divinity: Isis, Horus and Osiris
And of course, the Father, Son and the holy ghost.
Think of anymore ?
Wednesday February 22nd, 2012 @ 3:38am
Im sorry, but how do the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost count as polytheistic deities? They are all one and the same. It is like water- the fact that it can be a solid (ice), liquid (water), or gas (steam/vapor) does not mean that the chemical properties are any different. In any three forms, it is dihydrogen monoxide.
Wednesday February 22nd, 2012 @ 2:34am
This logic is laced with ignorance. Even if you do not believe in the Christian God, most people recognize that god(s) are not mortal or even physical. God did not make our physical bodies in His image because God is not a physical being and therefore has no physical image. This is talking about a spiritual being.